Your Doctor is Wrong: The Truth About Overprescribed Antibiotics and Fever Management

[00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of the Take On Healthcare Podcast.

[00:00:04] I'm Mary Sheen, a pharmacist committed to helping you navigate to the complex world of healthcare.

[00:00:09] And I'm Ted Suzelis, a naturopathic doctor.

[00:00:12] Today we're tackling two crucial issues.

[00:00:15] First is the overuse of antibiotics and second is when to treat a fever.

[00:00:20] Anobiotics are often overprescribed for things like ear infections, sinusitis, and even viral illnesses.

[00:00:27] But at what cost we're seeing an arising antibiotic resistance and disruptions to our natural microbiomes.

[00:00:35] We'll also look at fever management, a topic that is often misunderstood.

[00:00:39] When should you treat a fever and when should you get out of the way and let your body do its own job?

[00:00:44] We're very excited because Doctor Ian Suzelis, a primary care DO, will join us to share his insights

[00:00:51] on how to approach these common medical dilemmas.

[00:00:54] This episode is packed with information that could change the way you think about your health.

[00:00:58] So stay tuned.

[00:00:59] Let's get started!

[00:01:28] I'm not sure if you're going to share your thoughts on the doctor.

[00:01:29] Because you two are doctors and I'm not, so today I will be right, apparently.

[00:01:34] We're going to question common medical practices.

[00:01:37] And these practices that we're questioning today obviously also affect my practices of pharmacist.

[00:01:43] We are going to be discussing the inappropriate use, the overuse of antibiotics.

[00:01:50] And we have perfect timing because inobiotics, I don't know if you guys realize this,

[00:01:55] I actually have a season now.

[00:01:57] It used to be spring summer winter fall and now we have like antibiotic season or flu shots season, right?

[00:02:03] Right.

[00:02:03] I call it Z-pax season where everybody gets a Z-pac because

[00:02:08] Also known as school season.

[00:02:10] All right.

[00:02:11] Yeah, I guess something to the fact that when people are together in factions spreads.

[00:02:16] Right.

[00:02:17] That we can all agree on.

[00:02:19] Of course.

[00:02:19] But what we're questioning is when and where is it right to give an antibiotic.

[00:02:26] But most I guess we're going to talk about where we are going wrong across the board,

[00:02:30] which isn't to say that anyone's doctor is doing anything wrong or that one should not.

[00:02:35] Listen to one's doctor one always should.

[00:02:37] As always on take on healthcare, we're taking just a big picture perspective of a systemic problem.

[00:02:43] Yes.

[00:02:44] All right.

[00:02:45] Yeah, so I think we should start this episode with antibiotics.

[00:02:50] Yes, let's start with that.

[00:02:51] And so I feel like we need to

[00:02:54] preface the whole episode and start at the beginning by talking about

[00:02:59] why it could be a problem that we over prescribe antibiotics.

[00:03:04] But they don't be a lot of people really realize it.

[00:03:07] What antibiotic is because I've noticed not when I was a little baby pharmacist,

[00:03:12] but now later in my career people think an antibiotic treats a viral infection.

[00:03:19] It simply does not.

[00:03:21] Say it.

[00:03:21] It's a definite misconception.

[00:03:23] Okay, so you get that and your practice too.

[00:03:25] And I think that is also a systemic problem.

[00:03:28] Who perpetuated this misconception?

[00:03:31] And why?

[00:03:32] From what I've seen I really do think that it comes down to our American society in where we want

[00:03:40] medical system. They really are promoting less antibiotic use.

[00:03:45] We're looking at having good practice and when you actually do prescribe antibiotics.

[00:03:51] But a lot of times we don't have enough time or we have patients that again,

[00:03:56] we don't have the time to educate them or we don't take the time to educate them.

[00:04:00] And then they say, I'm sick.

[00:04:02] I need this now.

[00:04:03] Yes.

[00:04:04] And what do you do?

[00:04:04] I don't have time to fit you in the office and you sent me a message.

[00:04:07] Should I just send it in for you?

[00:04:09] I have to get through everything else that I'm seeing or I just want to make you happy so that

[00:04:12] I can go ahead and move on.

[00:04:14] Those are some of the things that I can see that can happen.

[00:04:17] And also to get better patients satisfaction scores.

[00:04:20] This is a big thing now, yes.

[00:04:22] Which is a huge thing now.

[00:04:23] So all of these things are to me just blow my mind because

[00:04:28] these are, I think, real problems that can do harm to people

[00:04:32] and yet they're so pervasive.

[00:04:34] And I didn't know that when my first couple weeks behind

[00:04:38] the counter, when I decided to work in community pharmacy,

[00:04:42] I didn't realize how prevalent it was

[00:04:44] that people would get a virus and come and tell me,

[00:04:47] oh, I just have a virus.

[00:04:48] That's why I need this a moxicillin.

[00:04:50] And I'm like, well, no, I'm in a really weird place.

[00:04:53] I don't want to say, but a moxicillin won't kill a virus.

[00:04:57] So I let it go for a while and eventually if I got to know the doctors

[00:05:01] prescribing habits a little bit or I had another reason to call,

[00:05:05] maybe to clarify something.

[00:05:06] I would just say, I just have to ask you.

[00:05:08] The patients said they had a viral infection.

[00:05:10] You gave them an antibiotic.

[00:05:12] Why'd you do that?

[00:05:13] And they're like, listen, they wanted something.

[00:05:16] What do you want me to do?

[00:05:17] They wanted something.

[00:05:18] And I'm like, wow, that's exactly what you said.

[00:05:21] There's an expectation and then you're expected

[00:05:25] to meet an expectation versus really practice good science.

[00:05:31] I believe so.

[00:05:32] When you come to the doctor's office and you have a problem,

[00:05:35] you expect that there's a fix.

[00:05:37] And you're going to give me a drug to feel better.

[00:05:40] And I can't have any pain.

[00:05:41] I can't have any discomfort.

[00:05:44] You need to give me something right now.

[00:05:45] So I'm out of that.

[00:05:46] We see that a lot.

[00:05:47] So if there's a lot of pressure,

[00:05:49] and then I really understood what was so interesting to me

[00:05:52] for me in that moment was I really understood the doctors perspective.

[00:05:56] I didn't know they were feeling that kind of pressure.

[00:05:58] Because I thought they just stood on science.

[00:06:02] They would like literally say to the person,

[00:06:04] well, no, you have a virus.

[00:06:05] Of course, I'm not going to give you an antibiotic.

[00:06:07] And that was not the case.

[00:06:09] So then what happens then?

[00:06:12] Do you think your listening?

[00:06:13] So what's the big deal?

[00:06:14] So what?

[00:06:15] I get an amma, so what?

[00:06:16] They feel better.

[00:06:17] I feel better.

[00:06:18] The pharmacy makes 50 cents.

[00:06:22] On a generic amongst everyone wins.

[00:06:24] So what's the harm?

[00:06:25] Right.

[00:06:26] Well, that's what we need to talk about.

[00:06:28] Yeah, there's two harms.

[00:06:29] I think it's individually, but there's also a collective harm too.

[00:06:32] Yeah, definitely.

[00:06:33] I would say number one is that antibiotics have side effects.

[00:06:39] They too.

[00:06:40] Shocked.

[00:06:41] Yeah, things like killing off the good bacteria.

[00:06:45] Which knowledge?

[00:06:46] Which we didn't rack in the day.

[00:06:49] And you can get a lot of normal symptoms

[00:06:52] because of that killing off the probiotics.

[00:06:55] Things like diarrhea, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting.

[00:06:59] We have drugs for that.

[00:07:01] Give another drug to counteract the side effects of antibiotics.

[00:07:04] Yeah, perfect.

[00:07:05] But then we have things like allergic reactions.

[00:07:08] Well, that's true, too.

[00:07:10] Yeah, still you have to have the amount.

[00:07:13] Rashes, itching, even antiflaxis.

[00:07:16] Or that rare thing with the quinolems?

[00:07:18] Like I can't tell you how many patients have that.

[00:07:20] The rupture of their Achilles tendon.

[00:07:22] Right, weakness of the appetite.

[00:07:23] Yeah, especially when

[00:07:25] combined with the steroid.

[00:07:27] It increases the risk and people just didn't know that.

[00:07:31] And that can happen, and that's pretty serious.

[00:07:33] Definitely.

[00:07:34] It's not like that is become a big educational campaign.

[00:07:38] Like be really careful in case you're one of the rare cases to get something rare.

[00:07:42] Right, yeah, Cipro shouldn't be your first live defense for your and her

[00:07:46] tract infection.

[00:07:47] Correct, but sometimes it is.

[00:07:49] Right.

[00:07:50] And I think there are definitely lots of bigger types of side effects

[00:07:54] that different antibiotics could have.

[00:07:55] That could be dangerous.

[00:07:57] But I think you made it when you said like the GI side effects, you get some diarrhea.

[00:08:00] I don't think people really think that's a big deal.

[00:08:03] And in fact, one person said to me, she was put on four different antibiotics.

[00:08:09] So anaerobic, aerobic, it was quite the gambit.

[00:08:14] And she's like, so I didn't pick up that other one that I'll need for the yeast infection.

[00:08:18] So it's almost also like it's no big deal.

[00:08:23] Right.

[00:08:23] So what, then I just need one more drug, a fluke on his off or yeast infection.

[00:08:27] What's the big deal?

[00:08:28] Right.

[00:08:29] But if all of these things like a yeast infection or diarrhea, the GI things are symptoms

[00:08:36] of killing off your good gut floor, do people even understand why?

[00:08:43] Like so what do I really need those guys?

[00:08:46] Right.

[00:08:47] But I think that due traditional doctors understand,

[00:08:52] and do you guys understand about the good gut floor?

[00:08:55] Do your peers understand that?

[00:08:56] Yes.

[00:08:57] Yeah, I think that especially now, since we have so much research,

[00:09:01] we do see that.

[00:09:02] And it's something that we're encouraged in all the time as far as different medical journals

[00:09:06] or articles that the gut microbiome is so important.

[00:09:11] And we look at that even more talking about the diarrhea.

[00:09:13] So one of the big things that we give an antibiotic,

[00:09:16] somebody gets seeded.

[00:09:17] We understand that seed if was in there.

[00:09:19] You killed off a lot of the other bacteria.

[00:09:21] You let this one promote and grow.

[00:09:23] And so we have this idea, and we know that this is something.

[00:09:26] And we also encourage to go ahead and talk to people about taking in cultured foods,

[00:09:30] probiotics, things of that sort.

[00:09:31] Oh, very good.

[00:09:32] So which is a big change I think over the past 30 years?

[00:09:34] It definitely is.

[00:09:36] About to the seeded, is there a data that suggests that some are more prone to it?

[00:09:41] Or like, or data that says if you've had a lot of antibiotics as a child or a young person

[00:09:47] that down the road, you're going to be more likely to get seeded.

[00:09:51] What do we really know about its frequency or who can get it and who won't get it?

[00:09:57] I probably can't speak to that one as far as the research, but I'm just thinking about it.

[00:10:01] Yeah, you do see people who've been treated with multiple antibiotics.

[00:10:04] Those are the ones who end up typically getting seeded.

[00:10:07] Which is very serious.

[00:10:09] Can be very serious.

[00:10:11] And sometimes hard to eradicate.

[00:10:15] So then we're thinking down the road.

[00:10:16] Maybe that's something that people can think of future self, right?

[00:10:20] Like so what?

[00:10:21] I killed a good guys this month.

[00:10:23] And then maybe in three months.

[00:10:24] But that over time to the same individual could really weaken.

[00:10:29] And if we're just finding out about this now, we don't know what the next 20 years will bring.

[00:10:34] Hopefully more research for sure.

[00:10:36] But yeah, I would be something to think about.

[00:10:38] I even forgot about seeded.

[00:10:40] Yeah, so along that line and the seeded,

[00:10:42] we typically think about it with hospital infections.

[00:10:45] So yeah, I just wonder what the frequency is.

[00:10:48] That that doesn't seem to be one of our normal gut flora.

[00:10:51] So maybe it is people contracted in hospital, whether they're visiting or in the hospital.

[00:10:57] And then when they have the antibiotics that kills off,

[00:10:59] the good bacteria allows it to grow.

[00:11:01] That's definitely a possibility there too.

[00:11:04] I would agree.

[00:11:05] And we all know now that our gut is part of our immune system.

[00:11:11] So then it seems a little bit ironic.

[00:11:14] Right?

[00:11:14] And that's a sad story.

[00:11:16] That we're inadvertently unwillingly killing the thing that will help us the next time.

[00:11:24] Right?

[00:11:25] Yeah.

[00:11:25] And this time.

[00:11:26] And I can't tell you how much I've observed.

[00:11:29] I'm sure you have two to agree when you have families that are much more

[00:11:35] natural-minded, that they don't always go out and go out the antibiotics like our family

[00:11:41] right that people tend to fight infections a lot better and never really need those antibiotics down the road.

[00:11:47] I do see that.

[00:11:48] Yes, definitely.

[00:11:50] You see that the especially we will say children or even adults that are needing the antibiotics or

[00:11:56] needing the antibiotics.

[00:11:58] They are the ones that keep on coming back and yes they have the ear infections again

[00:12:02] or they have the sinus infections again or they're dealing with these different things over and over.

[00:12:05] And the side effects of them I need another hey you're giving me an antibiotic like you said.

[00:12:10] Go ahead and send the dipheny anis well because I'm going to go ahead and have a yeast infection.

[00:12:14] Right.

[00:12:15] It becomes an expectation.

[00:12:17] Right.

[00:12:17] Yeah, the kids with the chronic strap infections and you can't get rid of no matter what.

[00:12:21] Yes.

[00:12:22] Really?

[00:12:22] Meaning antibiotic after antibiotic after antibiotic.

[00:12:25] Yeah, that's my second thing.

[00:12:26] These kids just keep developing strap infections one after another.

[00:12:30] Wow.

[00:12:31] So then how would like a natural approach be to that?

[00:12:35] Because that scares people.

[00:12:36] Like when my son that's how I found alternative medicine interestingly.

[00:12:40] My son kept getting recurrent scarlet fever which is a strap infection that shows up on the

[00:12:45] skin. So it's very terrifying.

[00:12:46] The fever's high, the skin's red and it was antibiotic after antibiotic.

[00:12:51] Can he kept getting allergic to them?

[00:12:52] To the point where the doctor said well the next time it'll be IV vancomisthen in the hospital.

[00:12:56] And I'm like nah.

[00:12:58] Well let's take out his tonsils.

[00:12:59] I'm like, ah, do we really want to be ripping out body parts?

[00:13:02] Now we don't.

[00:13:03] But 30 years ago we did.

[00:13:05] Take out the tonsils a lot and now it's we don't do it.

[00:13:09] And so I did it because I am a good soldier of the American health care system.

[00:13:15] And then he got infected again.

[00:13:18] And I said, but you said this wouldn't happen again if I took out his tonsils.

[00:13:22] And that's when I'm like I am abandoning this system quietly.

[00:13:27] So no one knows and finding alternative medicine.

[00:13:30] Because I this is crazy.

[00:13:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:13:33] So what would be a if you had a kid that had these chronic infections,

[00:13:38] what would be another approach to it potentially?

[00:13:40] Okay. So first off we're looking at the immune system overall.

[00:13:47] Imagine.

[00:13:48] Okay. So 60 70% of your immune system is in the gut.

[00:13:51] Which of course, that goes along with a lot with those

[00:13:54] probiotic cultures but also just your own immune cells.

[00:13:58] And we have this tube from our mouth to our anus that

[00:14:02] allows infections. And we got to make sure that we can kill them off.

[00:14:05] It's not bad on the skin.

[00:14:06] It was a good strategy actually if you were making the human body.

[00:14:10] Right.

[00:14:10] That you do that too.

[00:14:11] Yeah, of course.

[00:14:12] So with that we have to look at all these different factors to help get that gut healthy,

[00:14:17] to help with the immune system.

[00:14:20] So one of the big factors I always start with is

[00:14:23] healthy diet, eliminating foods that may be having sensitivities

[00:14:27] that is taxing your immune system so that you're keep fighting the foods you're eating

[00:14:33] and it doesn't allow you to fight the infection as well.

[00:14:37] God, I love that because I don't think that connection is easily made.

[00:14:41] No, no.

[00:14:42] And then if we need to repopulate those gut bacteria or do other nutrients to strengthen

[00:14:47] that digestive tract.

[00:14:50] And then we can look at different natural therapies to support

[00:14:54] and strengthen the immune system to fight those infections too.

[00:14:59] And a lot of the natural strategies is more a lot of the herbs and nutrients are more

[00:15:04] to strengthen the immune system to fight the infection versus just directly killing it.

[00:15:10] There's certain things like a regular oil in garlic and

[00:15:13] oil silver different things that would directly kill the infection, but a lot of

[00:15:18] nature pathic natural therapies are based on supporting the immune system

[00:15:22] to overcome and fight the infection.

[00:15:24] I think that's such a great distinction between fighting the infection

[00:15:29] naturally or chemically from a drug versus strengthening the immune system.

[00:15:34] Although I think at home, I've used a regular oil back in the day for something.

[00:15:38] And if they're wrong with that, I'll use that definitely a lot and we'll use some of those

[00:15:42] because they won't kill the gut bacteria.

[00:15:44] But how does your regular oil not know not to kill the gut bacteria?

[00:15:47] And their oxygen doesn't know.

[00:15:48] Well, they say a regular oil in garlic.

[00:15:50] These are normal parts of our diet.

[00:15:54] Oh, yeah.

[00:15:54] So the good gut bacteria are resistant to their effects.

[00:15:59] Isn't that amazing?

[00:16:01] The connection between nature and humans.

[00:16:04] Right. That's symbiosis.

[00:16:05] Yes, I love that.

[00:16:08] And I think that's such a great reminder of how it all leads to the gut.

[00:16:14] Right. Yeah.

[00:16:15] Well, then in how about it? Like in your practice, do you because you're a

[00:16:19] a deo and not an ND when somebody comes to you with say the example of our current

[00:16:25] strapped, do you go down that road too or you don't because it's not in your model like your

[00:16:30] practice model?

[00:16:32] Whenever I approach it, I'm it's on a patient patients basis and looking at them and just seeing

[00:16:38] where they are, what are they willing to do number one?

[00:16:42] Yeah, my whole goal and I talk to them is about their health and trying to make sure they're

[00:16:46] well being as good overall.

[00:16:47] And yeah, I'm also looking at it from a perspective of what if we learn through studies

[00:16:51] and conventionally what is my kind of pathway that I'm going to take?

[00:16:56] So if I have a patient that I know will work with things,

[00:17:00] I'm going to work with them with the natural route.

[00:17:02] I'm going to incorporate my brother over here who helping out as well.

[00:17:06] But if I need to, as far as they're not somebody that's going to follow the

[00:17:09] judgment that we need to to try and get them healthy from that perspective,

[00:17:13] I'm going to make sure that they're safe at least.

[00:17:15] Yes, of course. Yes, again, again, a great point where I have the luxury of

[00:17:20] they're coming into me specifically for the natural side of things because they're trying to

[00:17:25] get away from those antibiotics. Right exactly. So it's not that anyone here at this table is

[00:17:31] promoting just, woo, let it ride like right.

[00:17:34] Any intervention you, you listen to your doctor and yeah, and you guys both meet people where they are.

[00:17:43] Which I think is a great approach and speaking of the infections that we're going to see a lot of,

[00:17:48] we use strap as an example but I'd really like to get into ear infections because it's always

[00:17:53] been like this thing with me since my kids were little and like how do you really know it's an

[00:17:59] infection and I would never give them antibiotics for infections, which 30 years ago that was

[00:18:05] like you could never. Like how dare you? I had my other ways of doing things but I think at that

[00:18:10] point even there was something the journal pediatric medicine came out said they're really not effective

[00:18:16] and I don't and I think a lot of it has to do with vascular church, right? Like there's not

[00:18:20] a lot of vascular church there. So is the antibiotic even getting in there and then I've seen lately

[00:18:26] that now we give steroids on top of it because there's so much swelling that the antibiotics not

[00:18:32] getting there. What do we think about how the ear infections are overall being diagnosed?

[00:18:40] Because I think that's changed and what does that mean?

[00:18:45] What I look at whenever I'm looking at it, I try and fold the guidelines as well.

[00:18:49] So if we're looking at we have to distinguish them between acutotitis media and I think we were

[00:18:54] talking about a tightest media with a fusion. Looking at the different variability here,

[00:18:59] but of course it does that mean just for like the lay person. So acutotitis media?

[00:19:02] Acutotitis media versus one with a fusion. Okay so with acutotitis media we are looking

[00:19:07] at an acute infection and if I'm looking in the ear with a odoscope, I usually see a bulging

[00:19:14] very red, sometimes with plus behind it, um, a tmpanic membrane or the ear drum. And the patient

[00:19:21] is going to have other symptoms. Your pain, they can have a fever. They don't have to have a fever, right?

[00:19:28] Oh, they don't have to. I mean sometimes they don't, which is weird to me. But exactly seeing

[00:19:33] those different sides are things that are going to lead me to say, okay, are we dealing with an

[00:19:37] ear infection as far as an acute or tightest media and then we're looking at time frame as well.

[00:19:42] And we're looking at age. There's a couple of different things there. We're looking at

[00:19:46] definitely younger children. We are going to especially six months or less. We're paying

[00:19:51] more attention to what they're dealing with. And we know the different bacteria that are the main

[00:19:55] culprits there and that's why we're looking at specific antibiotics, particularly a moxisolum

[00:19:59] to start out with. But that's whenever we would base it off of those different symptoms.

[00:20:04] Usually 48 hours is what we're looking at that they've had them and they have those different

[00:20:07] symptoms before we'd say, yes, we need to treat. So or a temperature, I think, they're a temperature

[00:20:13] of 102 year also paying attention to that if you see that there's a higher temperature with it

[00:20:17] along with the signs that you're seeing in the ear that would indicate an acute or tightest media.

[00:20:22] First is a tightest media with an fusion. We have fluid in the ear, but we don't have that

[00:20:28] bulging. Usually it can be retracted. Usually there may be some times you'll see bubbles behind

[00:20:32] the ear. So it's not, you don't see the infection, infectious process that that redness,

[00:20:39] the inflammation that's occurring because the body is attacking something.

[00:20:43] So that's a great distinction. So there could be inflammation because the body is attacking

[00:20:46] something and there could be inflammation for a different reason. And to the patient,

[00:20:51] these things probably feel similar. They do and this is what we have to try and make the distinction.

[00:20:56] Yeah. But a lot of times this, a tightest media with a fusion is going to occur after an

[00:21:00] ear infection. So they've had this, they have some use station tube dysfunctioner that tube

[00:21:04] that goes between the signices and the inner ear there. Sometimes it gets blocked up with

[00:21:09] the mucus or you have that pressure in there and it keeps the ears from draining. So then we have

[00:21:14] this fluid that kind of stays in there. And it can happen after infection, the infections

[00:21:18] cleared. But this fluid can stay in there for four to six weeks. We'll say,

[00:21:22] yes, typically what we're going to do. And a lot of times I'm being an osteopath, I'll work with it

[00:21:26] in a couple other ways. But like, manipulation. Yeah, I'm going to feel like that's why

[00:21:29] used to do for my kids here in infection. Just have some manipulation done. Yeah, helping things

[00:21:33] to drain, helping blood flow, lymphatic. Yes, that's what I would do and I'm, it's 30 years later.

[00:21:39] I'm like afraid to admit it. But yeah, we didn't have a deal at the time. But so you still

[00:21:44] actively do things like that to help support the body. That's a big part of my practice that I

[00:21:49] really enjoy. Yeah, I can see why. And have you found that you can like, I could, my kids could

[00:21:57] clear out a near infection with just a few manipulations. Are you finding that to be?

[00:22:02] Yes, used to. I don't as much now because it's like I can't follow up with patients as much.

[00:22:06] So I'm trying to get what I really desire is to try and help families to know how to do some

[00:22:11] different manipulation or even like auto inflation where you plug your nose, plug your mouth,

[00:22:16] that lightly blow to help open up the station tube so it can drain better,

[00:22:19] massaging in front of the ears or doing some ear tugging as well. We used to teach our kids

[00:22:23] that too. Yeah. So different things we can do to help out and then teach families because

[00:22:27] ultimately the family's going to have to, they're taking care of their child, the parent is.

[00:22:32] And that's what we're talking about at this particular issue. Even adults when we're dealing

[00:22:35] with the ear infections or the fluid behind the ears, they can do some of these things on their

[00:22:39] own to help out. I've seen a big uptake in adult ear infections over the past couple of years.

[00:22:45] Are they really infections? How are adults getting ear infections? It is in part of the

[00:22:50] the reason kids get ear infections isn't a structural thing. We'll just tell their little faces

[00:22:54] are and the tubes that you were describing. Yes, for the hearing. That's a lot more common.

[00:22:59] Okay. It's a structural thing. It's a right. Yeah, when you have a much more

[00:23:04] small and narrow canal that's already small and narrow for adults. And you want it to go in

[00:23:08] their clean stuff out in a starter. Okay. But, yeah, as far as the adults, a lot of the times,

[00:23:14] I can't tell you how often I hear patients that came from their medical doctor and they looked

[00:23:20] on their ears all, you have double ear infection. You need this. You need a ear infection too. They

[00:23:25] and they're like, I didn't even know I had one. So what's the diagnosis based on that? If

[00:23:29] it's clearly not fever and pain or they would know they had one. Right. So what are we

[00:23:35] basing this diagnosis on? What are we seeing in there when we look in there and why are we looking

[00:23:38] in there? Like, it's not very common for an adult to have an ear infection. Well, now it is, but

[00:23:44] right. Well, they were coming in originally with some other complaints. I got a lot of sinus

[00:23:48] congestion or have a sore throat. And so I'm going through and doing my exam and I'm looking

[00:23:53] and I'm not saying that this is me looking in there. Oh, you don't have any pain. Oh, yeah,

[00:23:57] see some a little bit of redness on that, Hispanic membrane. Again, I'm looking at it and saying,

[00:24:03] I'll say a couple different things. Number one, yes, the patient may have been expecting things.

[00:24:07] Number two, I'm trying to decrease any kind of litigation. Yeah. And number three, well,

[00:24:13] I'm going to make sure that I don't miss something. And I see a lot of often with

[00:24:19] patients that are going to a new doctor and doing their initial physical. So this doctor is trying to show

[00:24:25] what a good doctor they are. Yeah. And so, oh, you have a double urine infection. We need to

[00:24:30] treat that right away. Yeah. I see it a lot with urgent care. So they're running through

[00:24:35] and so they see, oh, yeah, you look like you have an urine infection, double urine infection.

[00:24:40] Let's give you the antibiotic. Give you some steroids. Send you on your way. Lots of steroids,

[00:24:44] too. That's a whole other episode. That is right. And viruses can cause your infection. Of course.

[00:24:48] Yeah. How on earth would you know if it's a virus or bacteria? Neither one of them is in there

[00:24:53] identifying themselves with. So how do you guys know which is which? And again, and antibiotic

[00:24:58] does not kill a virus. So how do you know? So again, I'm looking at it from a perspective of

[00:25:05] I'm looking at the ear and I'm seeing these different signs, physical signs as well as their symptoms.

[00:25:11] So then viral in an an bacterial present differently. Again, we're talking about, I'm not going to

[00:25:17] typically, I'm not going to see a virus that's going to have this bulging ear drum that's red with

[00:25:22] so that's why it doesn't happen. And when we're seeing that, we're usually looking at it and saying,

[00:25:27] yeah, this is, this is a 60% of them are going to be back here and we're talking about true ear infections.

[00:25:33] And when did they occur? They usually occurred after I had a virus. Right. I had a lot of mucus in my

[00:25:38] signices. It blocked up you how things are normally draining. The bacteria had a chance to grow.

[00:25:44] So it's one of those things that occurs over time versus. Accutely, yeah, all of a sudden,

[00:25:50] I have a bacterial infection in my ears and it just happened overnight. No, it didn't.

[00:25:54] But that's where a lot of doctors will just prescribe the antibiotic because they think it's going

[00:25:59] there anyway. It's going there anyway. Let's just cut our losses and get on with the treatment early.

[00:26:03] Plus, like you said, everyone's so busy. So if I've seen this a thousand times before as a doctor,

[00:26:08] I know that's a good thing. Give them the antibiotic because they're not going to be able to fit in

[00:26:12] everyone's so sick right now. So they just do it. It makes sense from a certain perspective.

[00:26:18] But when we're talking about causes too, a lot of what I see is that it's an allergic response.

[00:26:26] That the use station tube dysfunction is mostly that people are having food sensitivities

[00:26:32] that are causing inflammation in their ears and their signices that increases their likely

[00:26:38] hood of getting in the infection. Yes. I'll see that again, lines that even I know about this stuff.

[00:26:44] It was hard for me to imagine. I think we understand if my nose is running,

[00:26:50] I could be, do we? Maybe we don't. Then we have a food allergy.

[00:26:55] Right. Yeah. Well, that's part of what we need to talk about here too. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:59] Yeah. That I was at lunch the other day at a new job in the one every time we order pizza,

[00:27:07] every time the kids like, yeah, every time after I eat, my nose gets stopped and my eyes

[00:27:14] so there's a connection being made and I immediately, it's every time we have pizza. So it's

[00:27:19] a glute analogy is that a dairy allergy, he'd have to figure that out. But that would be something

[00:27:24] that after every time you ate something, you had some sort of response. I keep in being tired.

[00:27:29] That's why I figured out a lot of my stuff. Why am I exhausted? Something doesn't agree. Like to even

[00:27:35] train people to start thinking along those lines. Well, but it can be difficult to connect

[00:27:39] those dots too because I find that when people react to a food with a food sensitivity,

[00:27:46] versus an allergy. So the allergy is very immediate. Oh my gosh, it's a difference. Yeah.

[00:27:51] And you'll work through it quicker. The food sensitivities might not. They may be a little delayed

[00:27:55] up to 24 hours. But they're going to last for three to five days plus. So you could,

[00:28:03] you know, you could have that reaction for several days at a time or eating some level of,

[00:28:08] you're sensitive to dairy and you're eating some level of dairy every day. Yes. So you're not

[00:28:14] always noticing that because your immune system can't have that strong response all the time.

[00:28:19] Very great point. Or you eat something weird and automatically then you're aware of the symptoms

[00:28:24] that have been going on in your correcting dots, because we love to do that as people, right? Right.

[00:28:29] Right. I drank out of the wrong cop. That's why I'm sick. We'd like to make those

[00:28:33] so see. It's very superstitious. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. So that's how,

[00:28:40] overall it could present not only could present as an infection when it's not,

[00:28:46] it's like underlying flared up reactions to food. But I'm also hearing you say that

[00:28:55] your immune system is being taxed anyway. So then with the constant fighting of the food like

[00:29:00] earlier that would, I think would make you more vulnerable. Definitely. Once again,

[00:29:07] I'll road sleep to the gut. Right. So yeah. So when we look at that, we have all these different

[00:29:15] causes of those ear infections. My my take and what I see with my patients is that the

[00:29:21] allergy and sensitivity issues tend to be a big underlying piece of that, which allows those

[00:29:27] the infections to happen when they do, part of my treatments, always going to be working on

[00:29:32] those food sensitivities to help reduce that inflammation, to help them stop and break the cycle.

[00:29:39] That makes perfect sense. And then it moves right onto the other part of this, which is

[00:29:44] the sinus infections. Yes. I've seen so many more of those. And in fact, like being at the

[00:29:56] I could actually see a few patients that I've just looking at their profile, chronic sinus

[00:30:02] sinusitis. And now all of a sudden there's a fungal infection in their sinuses. That's that surgery,

[00:30:08] a lot of times they'll try a few courses of heavy duty. We don't think it's a big deal. Like

[00:30:13] okay. So what? It's a, it's a course of antibiotics and we forget three months later. So what?

[00:30:17] It's a course of antibiotics. And then before you know it, you can really end up with resistance to

[00:30:22] point where you have fungus growing in your sinuses. Yep. That's, have you seen that? I have. I've

[00:30:28] seen several cases of that, where they end up, they've been treated over and over and over and it

[00:30:33] just keeps recurring. And then whenever they end up having a swab and they check to see what's

[00:30:37] growing in there, you have the fungus that ends up showing them. My God. Yeah, that's frightening.

[00:30:43] So do you think then? Is it possible? Like, what I think of like something so deep as a sinus

[00:30:49] infection? Is it possible that as we're treating it, we're really never quite fully eradicating it?

[00:30:55] So then the bugs that are in there that you know, like I've seen a moxisolum before,

[00:31:01] cephalosporin, all right. See what you got. Whatever whatever, like they kind of just get stronger and

[00:31:05] stronger to eventually nothing kills them or what happens with that or is it an overall weakening?

[00:31:10] So the body gets overcome with fungus. To me, that seems like such a big deal. I'm more horrified

[00:31:15] when somebody tells me they have a fungal sinus infection than they are. A lot of times I'd say

[00:31:20] you're correct. They're not, I don't think there is concern or understand it as much, but again,

[00:31:24] it's just like we talked about with the gut. We give these antibiotics over and over. We go to

[00:31:29] stronger ones because it's not controlling the symptoms of a chronic sinusitis which is different than

[00:31:35] an acute sinusitis. Okay, that's fair. Yeah. But so they keep on treating. They got to go higher.

[00:31:40] Okay. Well, that didn't work for me. I'm still having problems. I still have pain. All right. Here's the next

[00:31:45] level up. We're going to keep on escalating because I treated you for the main bugs that we have

[00:31:49] normally see in there. It's not hidden. So I keep on going up and then we have this killing of so

[00:31:55] much of the floor of that. Of course, we have talking about the mouth on down with that nasal

[00:31:59] passage is connected as well. And so we have those different bacteria in there. And so if we kill

[00:32:03] those, hey, guess what? That leaves room for fungus to grow. Wow. The fourth number one that we see

[00:32:09] boxes, the candida. Yes. Yeah. I would agree with you. You have that candida fungus. Yeah. I think about

[00:32:15] that. Yeah. Which is obviously that's one of the biggest things you see with antibiotic over

[00:32:21] use to get the thrice or women will get the vaginal yeast infections. But after all of those antibiotics

[00:32:26] in eating way too much sugar, too, it'll help that fungus that candida fungus to grow throughout

[00:32:32] the digestive tract. And then you can get it in the sinuses, too. It just seems just so much

[00:32:39] site, so many sinus infections over time. That could be allergy as well. Right. And a lot of the time

[00:32:44] it is. Yeah. It's really complicated. I think a lot of times we think that it's clear cut when we say

[00:32:51] allergy virus bacteria. We don't know which one is what they're all right. But it is not the

[00:32:59] meaning we're looking at it. Yeah. A lot of times there's a lot of overlapping symptoms that

[00:33:03] present. Right. So how do we know what to treat and when to try it? That's a great point, even

[00:33:08] including what the mucus looks like, too. Yes. Yeah. We're taught that green mucus means back

[00:33:14] you know what we're talking about that is that 100%. That is definitely not 100%. No. We're

[00:33:18] looking at it. I've been lied to. What is the, when we talk about these different colors

[00:33:23] as in the mucus, we're looking at our own cells. These are our own cells that are giving the

[00:33:27] or this is our bodies again, that inflammation our body is coming over there to fight something

[00:33:32] on whether it be an allergen, whether it be a bacteria, whether it be a virus. But that's what's

[00:33:37] causing the color and it does not always mean a bacterial infection. Right. Which I should say

[00:33:42] everybody, there's a lot of people that do they persist at and say, hey, I got a little bit of

[00:33:46] yellow on my mucus now. It was clear. I think I need an antibiotic. Yes. I've heard that too. Yeah.

[00:33:51] That's why I needed an antibiotic. And that's not that straight line is that is not superstition.

[00:33:57] That is. Wow. This information. Very interesting. And these, these kinds of misinformation

[00:34:06] that are so linked to um, but I need something to feel better and here's the evidence for it.

[00:34:14] It's really, I think, hard to uncople that and there's just so much marketing

[00:34:20] toward it. Like I don't know. Anybody competes with the marketing. And to me,

[00:34:25] like with you, with you comes down to the gut. With me, it comes down to the marketing

[00:34:30] as like this big force that we're all up against. That has nothing to do with science.

[00:34:38] Well, it does because it's psychology, which I guess is kind of a science. But um, yeah,

[00:34:43] what else do we want to say about the sinus infections? Anything else?

[00:34:48] As we approach the Z-pack season and bronchitis, what about bronchitis? Like if somebody has, um,

[00:34:56] well, let's let me ask you this. Okay, back to mucus. When we're coughing something up or

[00:35:01] blowing something out, the blowing something out comes from in here, right? It's our own cells

[00:35:07] that are diswresponding to inflammation. But if we're coughing something up, that really freaks people out.

[00:35:13] So where, where that's from the lungs, why would lungs ever have mucus and um, just from inflammation, right?

[00:35:21] Well, we're secreting mucus all the time over in our lungs. We are. It is part of our natural

[00:35:26] defense so that we can go ahead and catch different things whether we virus or bacteria. And we

[00:35:31] have yeah, what do they call the silly, the little cells in there, the hair cells that go ahead and

[00:35:34] help to get it up and out. So then we can go ahead and yeah, okay. But yeah, so going back and

[00:35:41] we'll lump these both together as far as sinus, acute sinus infections, we'll say viral and bronchitis.

[00:35:49] For both of them, we're looking at over 80% of them are viral. We're looking at it.

[00:35:56] I'm actually a 80% of our 90% of our 90% of our 90% of our 90% of our 90% of our 90% of our 90% of our

[00:36:05] viral to start out. My gosh, if we're looking at it all, but then they sometimes get a pseudo and

[00:36:10] like another infection. Again, we can have a secondary infection. But the bronchitis that's the same thing.

[00:36:14] And everybody thinks I'm coughing something up. I had this in my nose and now it's getting into my

[00:36:20] chest. Yes, that's going to be my chest. And then that is interpreted as a disaster. Right.

[00:36:24] Yeah. So who nobody wants to know, yeah? That's super viral or material. Right. So that's

[00:36:29] whenever they start to say, okay, it's coming into my chest. But again, we're looking at bronchitis

[00:36:33] is going to be over 90% viral. 90% of them. And then we come to time frame as well. We're looking

[00:36:41] at time frame. How long should bronchitis last? How long should a cough last? How long should a

[00:36:47] keep rhinocyanus cytosol? Please answer that question five minutes. That's my tolerance.

[00:36:52] That is an American woman. Five minutes. So truthfully, we're looking at a bronchitis. We're looking

[00:36:56] at four to six weeks. You're going to have that cough last afterwards. Should we just settle

[00:37:02] into that reality? Is that what you're suggesting? Well, but even with COVID people can have months

[00:37:06] and months. Oh, yeah. That immune reaction is a virus. Let's rewind everybody. Yes. Okay. So that

[00:37:12] then that really does make a lot of sense that it could last a long time. And we just don't like

[00:37:16] that. Right. No, my coughs lingering. I'm sick of dealing with it and I want to get rid of it.

[00:37:22] And then they get an antibiotic. And sometimes their coughs go away. Well, one of the things about

[00:37:26] antibiotics and this is why I think also we see that people say, oh, I got relief when I took this

[00:37:31] to take anti-inflammatory sometime. We see that it does decrease some of the inflammation. And again,

[00:37:36] we go back to inflammation. What is inflammation? It's our own cells getting in there and fighting

[00:37:41] off something. So we've decreased our body from having to go and do the work. Really,

[00:37:46] that's what it comes down to. Or is it just placebo? There may be some placebo too. Yes.

[00:37:52] And then they show that a Z-pack, these are mice and they have shown some anti-inflammatory

[00:37:57] action. Yes, they have. So a lot of them, like I said, they're going to have anti-inflammatory.

[00:38:03] Fascinating. So that's part of the relief too. Yeah, but I think it's probably good for us to

[00:38:12] step back a little bit and talk more about the mucus because yes, we have immune cell,

[00:38:19] secretory, IGA that specifically helps to produce that mucus, because that's part of your immune

[00:38:25] system, fighting those bugs. Yes. So it's done our enemy. No, the mucus, if it gets too thick and

[00:38:32] blocks your lungs and you can't breathe in your enemy, right? Exactly. But not, but just not because

[00:38:38] it exists. Correct. But there's a very compelling TV commercial that would say otherwise.

[00:38:43] I'm just saying where the mucus is personified and it's your enemy. And again, I just think

[00:38:49] that is so amazing how a marketing campaign can actually change people's perceptions of their own

[00:38:58] bodies and make part of your natural process and enemy when it's really a friend. Correct.

[00:39:04] Like a fever, but we're not ready for that. No, not ready for that. Okay, so back to the mucus.

[00:39:09] Continue on with your with singing the praises of the mucus. I just wanted to make that

[00:39:15] specific point of that. That is specifically part of our immune system. So we have to

[00:39:21] use our theory of the freak out, right? Right. Because if we couldn't produce that mucus,

[00:39:26] we don't get right. There are some people that have a deficiency in that secretory IGA and

[00:39:31] their immune system can't fight off these infections. The gut floor, the mucus, all part of the immune

[00:39:42] system. Okay, so where does that bring us? Where do you go from mucus really? That's such a high.

[00:39:50] Where do you go? Well, yeah. But when we're talking about that mucus and trying to keep it thinner,

[00:40:03] what is it good help? What is it good help? What did you say? I said this is the number one

[00:40:09] eucalytic. It's breaking up mucus. Yeah, the people get the antibiotic for the probably viral

[00:40:17] bronchitis and my doctor told me to get Guafennesin, which things the mucus but there it's all

[00:40:24] the sudden it's got extra mothor fan in it's got Tylenol in it's got this in it and that in it

[00:40:29] just to find a straight-up bottle of Guafennesin. And I always tell people you have to drink water with

[00:40:36] why because you have to. That's what you have to do right because I'm just trying to sneak in another

[00:40:42] muucoledic, right? Yep. But then you also have the number one dietary supplement since COVID started

[00:40:49] which is NSELCISTEEN, which breaks up mucus. That's true. Of course, even medical doctors know that and

[00:40:58] you can get, yeah, yeah, yeah, using that in the hospitals and stuff to help break up mucus along

[00:41:04] with the immunobulizer so that's something that they've used for years. Yes, but we can do it

[00:41:09] only two and it can help to break up that mucus to keep it thinner so your body can still fight

[00:41:15] everything off but not have it be so thick that you can't breathe. Right or then you can't like the

[00:41:22] choking all the time which is not comfortable at all. So then you would just do the supplement,

[00:41:27] the NAC supplement. And yeah, we can buy that. Like vitamin C, really. Yep. Like I said,

[00:41:32] it's since the early on in COVID, the supplement companies, every supplement company I've talked to

[00:41:41] that's their number one salary at this point for the last four years. That's how long that's really cool.

[00:41:47] Yeah. That's good because it's pretty safe and it does do what it's supposed to do which is

[00:41:52] the mucus and doesn't pass up anything else. But it has other benefits too because it also

[00:42:00] is good for the liver. It's one of those detox nutrients for the liver. That's right. I forgot

[00:42:05] about that when the Tylenol, Tylenol, it's also good. Yes, that's how I used to know it as a little

[00:42:09] body pharmacist. A metronautomaticocenter. The all the Tylenol overdoses were happening then. We're going

[00:42:15] way back and would give the little cycled cysteine and the nurses would open it carefully,

[00:42:21] put it in with the soda or whatever, put the lid on it because this was sulfur, smiling and people

[00:42:27] would drink it to say they're liver. Yes. Yes. Welcome, full circle. It does, doesn't it? Wow.

[00:42:34] No, that's a good one. I will have to have to make sure that we have that in our little supplement

[00:42:40] section at our pharmacy to make sure we have that for people. Yeah and I think one more topic

[00:42:46] that we really need to cover for the whole antibiotic over use is one of the probably the biggest

[00:42:58] societal issues with over use of antibiotics, which is antibiotic resistant. Yes, that is a great

[00:43:06] topic and we remember Mercia, correct? Back in the day when it was just running rampant and many countries

[00:43:14] and there were certain countries that were able to get a hold of it really quickly because they had

[00:43:19] socialized medicine and there was one pair not a thousand pairs and that one pair the government said,

[00:43:25] listen, doctors, I pay you and I your government say you show no longer give antibiotics for viral

[00:43:32] infections. And they said all right, and they stopped doing it when they could these are big change in

[00:43:37] that whereas American during that time still suffered from a lot of Mercia prescription rates.

[00:43:44] In other lens, so with the pediatric ear. And they have socialized medicine, correct? Correct. Yes,

[00:43:49] okay. Yeah, so with here in the US prescription rate for ear infections is 80 to 90 percent

[00:43:57] where in the Netherlands it's like 31 percent. Wow. That's because they're being much more

[00:44:06] judicial about prescribing antibiotics for what they're true intention is. Right and that's how you

[00:44:13] use a prevent resistance rate over time and that really will affect all of us as the bodies grow

[00:44:19] these bugs that are resistant, they get smart and then we spread them around to each other and it's

[00:44:24] a very path to you. Yeah. So do you want to do an overview on antibiotic resistance?

[00:44:30] Where are we now with it? Like what's happening? What are you seeing in practice now?

[00:44:34] You know what? What do your CE people teaching you about it?

[00:44:38] Oh, as far as antibiotic resistance. General yeah. Yeah. No, we're definitely still being very selective

[00:44:42] with antibiotics. We're trying to avoid several different antibiotics if you don't need them.

[00:44:47] Like you talked about with the clinical lens, trying to make sure and I think one of the things that

[00:44:51] we should be looking at as far as physicians over at your hospital or in your area they usually

[00:44:57] have like a biome card or I'm trying to remember the name of the card specifically. Yes, we

[00:45:02] should carry those around with us at Metro and our little lapopo code. So tell us exactly what's the

[00:45:06] different? Exactly. The right community. So we know and that can help us in knowing how to prescribe

[00:45:11] this also misconception when we're talking about lay people about knowing what antibiotics treat

[00:45:17] what bacteria or what's most common. And so I think a lot of times they just,

[00:45:21] and antibiotic treats everything. But yeah. So as far as the antibiotic resistance,

[00:45:27] yes, we're still talking about it. It's still something that we're still that antibiotic

[00:45:30] stewardship is really being promoted more and more now. And especially again, as we're looking at

[00:45:36] microbiome. So that's really where I see it right now. We're still trying, we're trying to encourage

[00:45:41] people we're trying to make sure that it is in education. Yeah. So I think we also because we're talking

[00:45:48] to the general public here and both of you are kind of losing sight of most people don't know what

[00:45:52] antibiotic resistance really is. And not just the end. Take us back to our test. So antibiotic resistance

[00:45:58] is where we're giving lots of different antibiotics over time. Like we're talking about over

[00:46:06] prescribing them. And so you never fully kill off that strain of bacteria. But the strains that are

[00:46:15] left are more resistant to that antibiotic. So you keep giving that antibiotic over time and

[00:46:23] it's less and less effective because the bacteria strains, they change their DNA. So the ones

[00:46:30] that are more resistant, they're the ones that keep growing more and are less effective to that

[00:46:35] antibiotic. And so that's what we're seeing overall is that these antibiotics are being prescribed too much

[00:46:43] and another piece of it is two that patients aren't taking their full course of the antibiotic either.

[00:46:49] They take one or two, one or two pills. They start to feel better and they stop it. Right.

[00:46:55] And so they only kill the very most susceptible strains and the rest is not to keep growing.

[00:47:02] Yeah. It's a great point because I don't think people realize that part of nature are bacteria

[00:47:06] out how they also want to survive. Right. They have their own mechanisms.

[00:47:12] It's any kind of evolution that we're looking at that we all want to it's survival of the fittest.

[00:47:18] We all want to survive and we are genetics make it so that the best and strongest can keep going.

[00:47:25] It's a great analogy and it reminds me as we approach fall aka z-packs season.

[00:47:32] The z-pack I feel like they've kind of have a great marketing edge in that it's

[00:47:37] however many days and it's quick and easy and it comes in a little pack versus, I don't know,

[00:47:48] three but it's a fact man right to remind people to finish it even if you feel better.

[00:47:54] But that's the words finish it. All right. Finish it even if you feel better. You have to

[00:47:59] remember remind them because they that's respect for the antibiotic at least. Like if you're going

[00:48:05] to do it I don't care what it is, but if you're going to do a medical intervention do it with your

[00:48:10] whole being and do it right use the placebo response be happy about it and do it to the end. Right?

[00:48:17] That's that will be my messaging. I'm going to put on a little production with every z-pack.

[00:48:23] Yeah, you can see it right one of the supplement companies is now putting out a little pack

[00:48:29] immune pack a 10 day pack to help fight infections dealing from the z-pack. Exactly.

[00:48:36] Is this very cool right isn't that a cool thing that really is a mottocourse of antibiotics

[00:48:42] called a mottocourse of Cyline. Right. Okay. See why the cool kids. You know what I say these

[00:48:49] things to my kids because we don't do this stuff at home when I say what's that? I want that. Yes,

[00:48:53] who doesn't? So it's like it makes you stronger and faster right? That's the idea that's what they call

[00:48:59] that. It has a word that has the letter Z in it because all of the new drugs have a Z or a Q or an X.

[00:49:05] They're just much sexier. So what is the name of this new immune pack? I mean, I don't want to

[00:49:11] know that's such a it's such a great point. I think that kind of education for people just an

[00:49:16] understanding that antibiotics are bacteria do want to live and survive as well. Right. They have

[00:49:22] their ways that's what we have like outbreaks of Marissa, which I probably should have defined as

[00:49:27] the methods Cyline resistant, Stropdacoccus or yes, which that used to be or is it staff staff? Thank you.

[00:49:33] Staff infections used to be so easy to clear up right and then all of a sudden we had this one.

[00:49:39] It always worked. The antibiotics always worked and now it's like, no, I'm smarter than you now.

[00:49:44] So we do have to think about that. The drug industry now is pressured to try to keep

[00:49:51] finding new antibiotics that are going to help fight these resistant bacteria. Yeah. And so it's

[00:49:59] continuing factor that because we're abusing the antibiotics, we're becoming more and more resistant.

[00:50:05] It's still we have to find better and better antibiotics so they can kill these super bugs so they don't

[00:50:09] kill all of us. That's right. And those antibiotics are brand and they're expensive and they're going to be

[00:50:14] limited and they're going to be a prior authorization and it's become a whole thing. Yeah.

[00:50:19] They're so expensive and by the time that those get to generic and some of them don't because

[00:50:25] they're because too many deaths and side effects and interactions. So the fancier we get with this

[00:50:30] stuff, right? We have to think about that too. The more powerful they get oftentimes more dangerous

[00:50:37] they become. Right. But you're always looking at that risk to benefit ratio if you have an

[00:50:43] infection that you're going to die from. Well I think the risk of damaging our liver to kill

[00:50:48] the infection. Absolutely. I'd make that choice. Right. But I wouldn't I would hope that my body

[00:50:53] would never get to that point. Yeah. That I either couldn't fight it anymore. I would hope it

[00:50:58] never get to that point or there would be something that we've collectively allowed as health

[00:51:02] care providers that's really putting us collectively at risk. So we have to be in that position.

[00:51:08] Yeah. And just one little point that I want to go back to because we talked about families that don't

[00:51:14] over abuse those antibiotics and take better care of themselves. Like same our family we you know

[00:51:28] until I was in college when I had my wisdom teeth removed. Yeah. And I have not had a course of

[00:51:35] antibiotics since. So 50 years of life and I think I have one course of antibiotics in my whole life.

[00:51:41] Do you know, I have a child who's never had an antibiotic? Both of my children haven't.

[00:51:46] Yeah. So 13 and 18. Where this says. Yeah. Right. How about you? I've only had one antibiotic

[00:51:52] and that would have been my first couple years of practice and it was a came into contact with

[00:51:57] the first one. So we treated the strap and of course at that time my daughter ended up getting it as well.

[00:52:01] So we treated her with a ze only antibiotic she had. My son is not had an antibiotic. Wow.

[00:52:06] And it really worked well too because you didn't abuse them. Exactly. It took it and it worked.

[00:52:11] Did you finish the course therapy? Yes. It was very easy for me to finish. It was only one day.

[00:52:15] Okay. That is easy. That is easy. And what about like um what about generationally

[00:52:24] where we have a population that's had a lot of antibiotics. So they're gut's changed and then

[00:52:31] those people have kids. Don't those kids have different gut flora? Well, that's another one.

[00:52:36] And then those gut flora is more delicate and then we put antibiotics onto that.

[00:52:43] Is this a concern? Well it can be we get our a lot of our gut bacteria from our mothers

[00:52:50] and a lot of it is during childbirth. Okay. And then we also have a lot more

[00:52:56] cesareans actions where you don't get that transfer of bacteria as much. Wow. So

[00:53:01] that affects the gut too. And so generationally, yes, that can be in more of an issue also.

[00:53:09] So then we just see like how there's so many things that could be weakening our own immune systems.

[00:53:15] Which perhaps are beyond our control, right? Maybe you're someone who's in their 20s or 30s.

[00:53:22] You've had a lot of antibiotics. You were born via c-section. You have allergies, whatever.

[00:53:26] Or whatever has happened to you but there's always those things that you can control. Right.

[00:53:32] So yeah, that we always have to remember there's things that we can do.

[00:53:37] But with that I think it is important for people to realize that probiotic supplements

[00:53:44] they're a good thing. They can help with those gut bacteria. But all of the probiotic

[00:53:50] cultures that we get in supplement form don't really colonize the gut and stay there.

[00:53:59] I was going to I was hoping this would come up at some point because I've always wondered that

[00:54:03] like we take them but how do we know the other guys are letting them in? Well, but it's

[00:54:07] but it's the when I don't they colonize why aren't they accepted and how do we know like what the

[00:54:12] balance is we don't know enough right? There's a lot we need to learn about that but

[00:54:17] there's there's benefits because it helps to normalize the gut and so the other strains can

[00:54:23] grow stronger too. Okay, we know that. Yes. All right. Yes and so like for instance some of our main

[00:54:29] gut bacteria or the lactobacillus and the bifida bacteria, the probiotic supplements that we get

[00:54:37] are similar to the ones we have in our gut so they can help support and help the ones that we

[00:54:44] already have colonized grow better and be stronger so our gut health can be stronger but we can't

[00:54:50] look at it in this reductionistic just like oh we do the three antibiotics and the the anti

[00:54:57] fungal for for the infection is no big deal and we just add in some probiotics when we kill all

[00:55:02] this we're doing you realize this is where we're going. That's why I wanted to bring it up. Right. Yes.

[00:55:07] Yes, so we do have to be careful about that. Okay, so on that note then when you have a patient

[00:55:16] that is on an antibiotic would you prescribe a probiotic and then would you like because people

[00:55:26] ask me when my doctor said I have to go get a line and how do I take it with the antibiotic? If

[00:55:31] I'm taking a pill of a moxocene, a pill of a line won't they meet fighting in there? How does that work?

[00:55:35] Well yeah so yeah if we have most of those probiotics they can't a lot of them can get killed off

[00:55:42] by the antibiotic for a... That's what that's what common sense tells me. You want to keep it as far away

[00:55:48] from the antibiotic that I talked about. But the other thing is we have other types of probiotics

[00:55:55] that aren't bacterial. So we have sacromyces bilarii which is a fungal probiotic. So the brand

[00:56:03] name fluoristore you probably not. Oh yes I've seen that in the fridge. Yeah and so the fluoristore

[00:56:08] is a very expensive brand name versus... That's in the fru- You can get sacromyces bilarii from a

[00:56:13] lot of other companies a lot more cost of that. Yeah but it's a fungal probiotic so won't

[00:56:19] killed by the antibiotics. So that's always what I want patients to be taking while they're on an

[00:56:26] antibiotic so it'll help to keep that gut. The gut healthier we're doing. Sure this process

[00:56:33] and that process. We're just mitigating our risk right of the antibiotic. Yes. If it's deemed

[00:56:38] necessary of course. So the rest of the study that showed that was like if you take the probiotic

[00:56:45] two hours after the antibiotic you have it much better. Okay thank you for that that's helpful

[00:56:50] for me. That's important that way. Okay two hours after. At least two hours after but two hours

[00:56:56] after was one of those ones where they actually did see some benefits. So nice and it's then you keep

[00:57:01] the dose standard because sometimes I just have people take a little bit more knowing some might

[00:57:05] get killed but if I tell them to time it then okay I love that that's a great tip. Yeah

[00:57:13] and such a really good point about like for the people that are more naturally minded and not

[00:57:19] all into the same systemic model of a straight line and what we'll just do that. Right right.

[00:57:26] The we all have to I think collectively as healthcare practitioners and people just think

[00:57:32] a little bit bigger and consider all things. Right and not to panic while doing so. Of course.

[00:57:39] Right. And also since we're always trying to be fair on this podcast. Yes.

[00:57:43] Sometimes there is a time in the place where you need an antibiotic and I have patients

[00:57:48] that I have to talk them into taking their medical doctors prescription because they really do

[00:57:54] need an antibiotic. Okay I think that's such a great point and like for for balance because

[00:57:59] your patients are more alternative minded and they're probably more like me who are absolutely

[00:58:06] terrified of any no medication like I'd love to see it on the shelves. Yeah and I'm just full

[00:58:11] of joy but I don't want to anywhere near me. Right. So I would be which is strange but but that

[00:58:16] fear is not rational either but if I needed it I would and I have I've done things that I

[00:58:21] needed to do but I can see where there would be people with so much distrust that they would

[00:58:28] resist even the thing that would help them. Right. Yeah and I would say that more often I'm telling

[00:58:35] the patients to finish their course of antibiotic that they started. Good for you versus there's

[00:58:41] not as many times where we need to in my practice I can recommend different natural antibiotics

[00:58:50] that can take the place but there's still always a time in a place where somebody needs

[00:58:55] of prescription antibiotic. Exactly and yes I love that because it really is about respecting

[00:59:00] the chemistry, respecting your practitioner, respecting yourself and if you're taking someone's

[00:59:05] advice that you're paying do so with thoughtfulness and follow through and don't second guess. So

[00:59:11] so what you whatever happened in there's always the next day to recover and get better and prevent

[00:59:17] right. One of the things that I don't know a few guys have seen but it's one of the things that

[00:59:21] I've actually implemented in practice and I know that there have been some other people that have

[00:59:30] fearful that they may have a bacterial infection but you're kind of like you know what you're not

[00:59:33] there yet giving a prescription but saying don't fill this for three to five days and then if you

[00:59:40] have these symptoms x, y and z then fill it and take it. A lot of times they don't end up taking it

[00:59:47] is and that's what the study should they don't end up needing it they don't take it because they

[00:59:50] waited that time and so I think you'll see that happening more and more. I hope so I think that's

[00:59:56] because it handles the psychological aspect of my came to you and I'm paying for this insurance

[01:00:02] and now I'm giving you a copay and you did nothing for me. This piece of paper is not nothing

[01:00:08] it never was nothing even if you forget to fill or not the piece of paper itself has power it

[01:00:13] says I care about you I'm looking out for you and in a way it maybe even has more power and like

[01:00:20] I might not need to use this power. Exactly yeah I love that and then don't until x, y's

[01:00:28] and it's very clear cut so it's not like whoa we hope or what we don't know you're telling them

[01:00:33] because you've and you have spent the time you've assessed them and I'm telling you if it heads

[01:00:39] here and you'll know if it did for this one see then you fill that that to me that is such a simple

[01:00:45] powerful solution and it helps to empower the patient so that they realize oh I don't always

[01:00:52] need it in antibiotic can can break that cycle where they're not so fearful of the factons. I love

[01:00:59] that so much that is such a great are we ready to I love that as an ending to that topic.

[01:01:05] I think that's perfect yes and we're going to talk about fevers correct correct something that

[01:01:09] he knows a lot about. I know this way out of the house because an honor of this podcast when I got

[01:01:15] very sick this week and my fever was really high or like nope I shant fight this fever I

[01:01:22] shall not suppress it but I don't anyway because I know that it's helping me and I'm very fortunate

[01:01:29] and that when I was a little baby pharmacist way back we were dealing with the AIDS epidemic in a real

[01:01:35] way and healthcare was like the end of the 80s and beginning of the 90s and I was very

[01:01:42] fortunate to have a very extensive CE that was presented live by a clinician in that field

[01:01:50] and they spent all this time teaching us about the immune system which we didn't know as much

[01:01:56] before AIDS we just didn't and the one thing that I took away I remembered from that presentation

[01:02:02] I know nothing about nothing I just graduated from pharmacy school that one of the first things

[01:02:08] it sounds so obvious now but we didn't know that one of the first things that the body does when

[01:02:13] it's invaded with anything an allergen of iris or bacteria is turned up the heat. That's what it

[01:02:18] does and I don't think my peers thought much of it and I would but I went home thinking

[01:02:24] then why do we tell people to take time at all like to the good people that know

[01:02:29] that make Tylenol know this that'd be very bad for business. Look that it's something that the

[01:02:34] body does and it's a good thing and I just always always remember that. Right and I feel so grateful

[01:02:39] that I got to learn that. Yeah and so basically what what the body is doing is trying to increase your

[01:02:46] body's temperature higher than what that infection can stand so that your body can kill off the

[01:02:52] infection that way. We're even keeping it from growing right. Suppressants growth but yeah and of

[01:02:57] course we can talk about numerous other things that the body does whenever you race it's temperature.

[01:03:03] Please tell me start to produce more white blood cells the cells that fight off infection. They

[01:03:08] become more mobile and able to travel better so we're putting out other different chemicals

[01:03:13] that are going to help out as far as killing these different infections. So a fever does have

[01:03:18] such a benefit that it's a problem not to stress completely. But how to get to the point where

[01:03:23] that is all we do. In fact it's to the point where the fever is considered a disease itself and

[01:03:31] it must be eradicated. Yes we need that. Norma Thurmia where we just have this normal temperature.

[01:03:36] We that's what we're told you get not in medicine just in general with as patients a lot of

[01:03:40] times so yeah make sure you treat that fever make sure you treat that fever. As if it was a disease.

[01:03:45] Yes. Who's there agent that the fever was marketed it was a symptom and now they're graduated

[01:03:51] to a whole disease and in of itself how does this symptom go from symptom to disease purely in

[01:03:57] only marketing. I would not bring them to you there marketing by the 100% marketing.

[01:04:01] I read it. Yes. Exactly. Which I then I really started to watch those commercials and it took me

[01:04:08] years before I realized what they were really selling and when I've realized I'm like that is one

[01:04:14] of the most powerful marketing campaigns I've ever experienced in my life because if you don't give

[01:04:19] your kid, Tylenol you're a bad mother. You're not practicing bad science. You're a bad mother.

[01:04:31] That is like nobody wants to be that. So of course I'm going to give my kid a Tylenol. Right.

[01:04:41] It's genius marketing campaign and so okay so one is

[01:04:46] because I feel the resistance coming from all over like when is it? What I mean not the word

[01:04:54] feasible. When must you reduce a fever? Well let's start by defining what a fever is because

[01:05:01] a lot of people don't even know what a fever is and they think oh they they talk about oh they have

[01:05:06] a mild fever but or low grade. And so we're talking about a temperature of 100.4 or

[01:05:13] very fair and high 100.4 Fahrenheit or greater is considered a fever. Okay and of course we have

[01:05:19] different ways that we check it too that are also going to affect what we view as far as what's

[01:05:23] a temperature. Very true. Different. Yeah. So I mean of course rectals going to be which

[01:05:27] most people don't do that. Correctal is going to be the most accurate because we're getting

[01:05:30] what the core body temperature is. Good point. I'll have to share with you as far as like these

[01:05:34] different ones where I can shoot my gun and get them run there. That would brought to us by

[01:05:39] the press that it in times. Right. Exactly. I saw differences as far as people being outside

[01:05:46] and coming in. I had a gentleman who was outside it's really hot outside he comes in and he's

[01:05:51] nothing's going on with him. They check his temperature and it's like 101. Go! That like

[01:05:56] hold on a second. He's like my feel great nothing's going on here. I'm like let me go ahead and

[01:06:00] check your oral temperature and check that and of course then it's a normal temperature. Wow.

[01:06:04] Of course the temperature of the skin based on elements outside is also going to affect that.

[01:06:09] Yeah. That's my oldest Evan when he's in bed he loves to bundle up under the covers.

[01:06:16] So when family starts getting sick because we've all been conditioned now with COVID that you

[01:06:21] got to check for a fever and he'll be so bundled up in the covers that he's got a 104

[01:06:28] fever every single time. And you'll let it pull the covers off and let him calm down and it's normal.

[01:06:34] So how would it be if the ones you take in the ear? How accurate are those? Those ones aren't

[01:06:38] bad. They're about to agree less than what it actually is. So we're like one to refer and

[01:06:43] height less. Okay. And that's a thing all of an old-style mercury or non-murcary thermometer in

[01:06:51] the mouth is going to be a lot more accurate than the digital one in the mouth or the ear

[01:06:56] or the four types of. The digital muff ones aren't accurate. They typically aren't as accurate.

[01:07:02] So anything? I'm sure it depends on the actual brand. The brand saying in a doctor's office

[01:07:08] it's going to be a lot more accurate than the 291 you buy in the drug store.

[01:07:15] So then what is considered a high fever?

[01:07:19] So that's a difficult question. It depends on the answer.

[01:07:22] It's right. You know, it just in general, we start to talk about a fever and I would say 104

[01:07:29] and greater is where usually we're starting to say, okay that's a very high fever. I know a lot of

[01:07:34] people have less, less tolerance but I think as far as if we're actually looking at it 104

[01:07:38] rate or greater is what would be considered as a high fever. I think that's right. Let's wait. Yeah.

[01:07:42] Hi. Yeah. When you get to that high, yes, you're uncomfortable. But will you die from it?

[01:07:48] Well, of course not. But that's where you get to that degree and it's okay to take

[01:07:54] lukewarm baths or things like that to help make you more comfortable and calm it down a little

[01:08:00] bed. All right. What about I have a high fever so I like my kid has a high fever. They'll get a

[01:08:07] seizure. Yeah, that's definitely a difficult one because I know that that's perpetuated out there

[01:08:12] and that's one of the biggest reasons that we treat any temperature and trying to get to that normal

[01:08:17] is because people are fearful of that. With a normal fever, even a high fever, we typically don't

[01:08:25] see a seizure occur. It's whenever we have hyperthermia. We are not sweating. We're holding in the

[01:08:34] heat. We're dry. We're hot dehydrated. Those are the times that we can end up seeing that. And

[01:08:40] usually this is going to be at the very onset of a fever not as the fever's progressing. And so

[01:08:47] that's where we're looking at that. But also can depend on how quickly the fever rises too.

[01:08:53] That is true. Oh, so if it rises really quick, maybe the body doesn't. The nervous system can't

[01:08:58] rest adjust and then you might get a seizure. Right. Well, what about if you're constantly

[01:09:04] if you have a really high fever but you give time, linole or ibuprofen, whatever comes down.

[01:09:09] But then it wears off and it goes back up and then it will the up and down cause any

[01:09:14] seizure potential. I haven't seen that at all. I can't speak that there's any studies on

[01:09:21] that but I don't believe that that's the case at all. It's just a really high fever with

[01:09:26] the other things that would be going on, the dehydration and the lack of sweating. The could

[01:09:30] cost me a slow reduction with the with the Tylenol or Advil or whatever and probably a slow

[01:09:37] increase again as the medication wears off. So what are the risks of treating a fever?

[01:09:44] With Tylenol, ibuprofen or something like that. If we're looking at that,

[01:09:49] yeah, we're suppressing the body as a immune system from being able to fight things off.

[01:09:53] We can reduce the time to diagnosis of a more serious infection and then toxicity. Those are

[01:09:59] the big things that I would think about. Right. I like what you're saying about reducing the time

[01:10:03] because I would always tell people, it was in like gotten community pharmacy just because of my

[01:10:07] background with alternative medicine. Well, I'm sick. I can't get into the doctor. Should I take

[01:10:12] some Tylenol or ibuprofen? I'm like, well, can you really not get what to tell them? What do you mean?

[01:10:18] I said, if you artificially do something to yourself, you're not going to have good information for

[01:10:21] your doctor. So I've always said that. So I'm glad you're kind of validating that you want a

[01:10:27] clear picture of your own clinical case. Right. Yeah. And so the benefits of treating the fever as

[01:10:33] if somebody does have a higher fever, a child and they're very uncomfortable. I'm usually it's

[01:10:38] very uncomfortable. A lot of things are the headache. Yes. And those can be times of benefit

[01:10:44] we're like, okay, I'm going to help. Great. Again, not just to say, I need to get them to a normal

[01:10:48] temperature. Right. One of the things I wanted to ask because a lot of times I do some natural

[01:10:53] things to try and help out with fever is your thoughts on that as well because so say, I remember

[01:10:58] whenever before I was into before I was a medical student, I practiced reflexology. And so working on

[01:11:05] I remember specifically, I had a family invited me over because there's sun had a hundred and three

[01:11:10] fever. And I'm working on his feet. And of course, one of the areas you can work on is over on

[01:11:15] the big toe, the first, the great toe, you have the pituitary and hypothalamus reflex. The hypothamuses

[01:11:20] were kind of control our temperature. And so this particular reflex I worked at now was able to

[01:11:24] get his temperature down within like two minutes. Then the kids up and running around and having

[01:11:28] fun and playing or giving a homeopathic sometimes very far. So it's something that that effect

[01:11:35] or again, the type of bats. But what about using those? Do you have any issues with using those to

[01:11:40] help get because again, you've then technically are we are we are we are we are we are we are we augmenting

[01:11:47] the body and how it's well like with the homeopathics, it's going to be a talk about on this show.

[01:11:52] That's going to be speeding up the recovery time for your body to fight the infection.

[01:11:58] I would agree. Yeah, so that benefit because you're strengthening the life force. Right.

[01:12:04] But such an interesting point about reflexology. Yeah. But reflexology takes into consideration

[01:12:10] the entirety of the body. And with that child did he did it where off and the infection

[01:12:20] gets worse again. That would be my one thing to look at is if maybe that did just stimulate

[01:12:27] his immune system, things come down in his body took over and just moved on.

[01:12:33] You know for that particular one from what I remember of course I worked the whole foot as well

[01:12:36] and worked in any areas that were off but that was the one specific thing I did to help to try

[01:12:41] and help out with the fever and he was up and playing around after that mom said he recovered very

[01:12:45] fast like the next day or so. So I would say that it was probably the totality of the therapy

[01:12:51] that just helped him get over that hump with the infection exactly. Which is such a great point because

[01:12:59] no drug can offer totality in therapy. Right. Where something like reflexology can not

[01:13:07] to say one's better than the other but I think it's just a really interesting distinction.

[01:13:12] Because of fever is not existing for no reason whatsoever. It's part of who knows what else

[01:13:19] we'll discover about it. Right down the road. We knew so that oh no, we find out more and more.

[01:13:26] But the fact that it does show up and does all of these things or help the body with all of

[01:13:32] these other things getting rid of the thing that doesn't belong there and enhancing the things

[01:13:37] that do belong there. Yes. Respect. I'm so glad I had a fever of 112 and I just live to tell

[01:13:47] all the time. No it is the pain that's so when the fever so high it hurts so bad.

[01:13:58] And there's really, I've looked and said okay if I just kill it for one night but I did recover so fast

[01:14:05] and I think that had a lot. I'm willing to, I guess for me personally and it's just me it's my

[01:14:11] body, my choice. I'm willing to suffer really hard for a short time to get better. Like I'm

[01:14:20] willing to feel bad now to get better later. Right. And that's the opposite of what we're taught.

[01:14:25] I think marketing wise in the American healthcare system. You must feel better at all costs.

[01:14:30] You must feel better at the cost of getting better. Right. I think that's for long-term health.

[01:14:37] Yes. Right. That is dangerous. That is dangerous. And I pay in. There's definitely a balance.

[01:14:44] Now as far as temperature wise what would you, what would you say you'd be worried about with a patient

[01:14:50] if the fever got too high? So I usually I'm telling parents if their child's going over 104

[01:14:58] go ahead and treat it to go ahead and bring it down. That's typically for a child. And just

[01:15:02] part of it's again that comfort thing for the child because they're usually very uncomfortable. That's

[01:15:07] that's typically what I say if we're talking about when you're supposed to. I think it's the

[01:15:12] one journal of pediatrics that I looked at, the article said a temperature over 101 is what they

[01:15:18] recommend is. Oh wow. So but those were the different things that I had looked at.

[01:15:23] And then far as how long would you want to treat that fever before you seek help?

[01:15:33] Yeah. So I guess it's going to be taking a look at the other symptoms as well. Right.

[01:15:38] Always looking at seeing okay are we having a lot of pain is their headaches is there?

[01:15:42] Whenever we have that fever, there is some process going on in the body. Are we having a cough that's

[01:15:47] with it in this patient looks like they're very sick. They're not breathing well or are they having

[01:15:52] a lot of pain they're having discharged from their ear. They have the rupture to your drum or

[01:15:56] right. So we're looking at everything else taking it in. It's again not all about the fever.

[01:16:00] Right. Right. Yeah. Are they really listless and fairly moving? Yeah. Yes. So those are the times

[01:16:06] and yeah I've had patients like that were the parents. They have brought them into the office

[01:16:11] and they said, yeah this kid is just laying there. He's not even moving. He's not doing anything

[01:16:16] and they have a high temperature than I said. Yeah, it's treat them. Let's get them hydrated

[01:16:20] then because right now they're not doing what they need to to drink a lot of times you'll see

[01:16:24] with kids. They'll refuse to drink whenever their fever is extremely high.

[01:16:28] I wonder why that is? You would think I would have everything burning

[01:16:31] that you would want the water to cool it down. Like why is that set up that way?

[01:16:36] Does it just an irritation or more miserable at that point in time and you just don't want

[01:16:41] to be bothered or right. That's I've seen that with some kids and they'll just they'll refuse

[01:16:45] anything at that time because they're uncomfortable. We're with somebody who can't talk as well.

[01:16:48] Do they have a sore throat? Yeah. I don't want it's irritating to my throat whenever I go

[01:16:52] ahead and my swallow. Yeah, that brings up a point like temperament. People have different temperaments

[01:16:59] when they're sick. Right. And the part that we that the alipathic system doesn't treat

[01:17:03] and the system that we don't talk about does treat is the temperament of the patient

[01:17:08] when they're sick because all of you is affected. Your emotions, your cravings or whatever.

[01:17:14] Yeah. It sounds like homeopathy. No, we don't talk about that. But it does. It's just really

[01:17:21] it's interesting to me to the one of the best examples I have of that one day I was

[01:17:27] really sick many years ago. Just so sick. The fever or the whole thing and I had a

[01:17:36] really intense fear that I was going to be taken. And I was so fearful that I was going to be taken

[01:17:44] almost couldn't speak that if I spoke of it, right? And nobody talks about that when

[01:17:49] it comes a sickness. Like what are you afraid of? But the homey paths too, like what are you

[01:17:53] right up to? I'm going to be taken. I'm thinking this that's normalized or know what

[01:17:56] would ever speak of it. And then the one remedy was not because homey, homey apathy doesn't treat

[01:18:02] symptoms but like that there was something about fear being taken and that's what was suggested

[01:18:08] and I took and I was I felt amazing after that. And I just I can I always look at,

[01:18:17] oh my kids when I went consult the homey path like what's their temperament was always the question.

[01:18:21] And then just I always became curious about the different patients and how people really do change

[01:18:28] when they're overcome with something. Right? And I like the times I've had a bacterial infection

[01:18:35] my being my temperament is very different than a virus. A virus always feels very dark to me

[01:18:42] and I go to a very dark place as one of virus is present in my body and it's just like that's

[01:18:49] just a different way to look at yourself overall when you're not feeling well, all of you

[01:18:57] like some people feel so bad they don't want any help that becomes part of their

[01:19:04] their case or being right? I just stay away from me like everyone's stay away from me. Hard to

[01:19:09] help people like that, right? But I think it also comes down to your mindset too.

[01:19:14] Which is affected for me my mindset was affected by that virus. Let me tell you. Right.

[01:19:19] Yeah, my mind is a very positive, strong mind this week. It was anything but

[01:19:26] right. That is frightening because that's one thing I count on. Right. And that's what we've

[01:19:30] talked about before. You're scared of being sick. Very scared of being sick because that will be taken

[01:19:35] Ted. Right. Right. That is terrifying. Right where we grew up not being so afraid of that. So

[01:19:43] for me, I get sick it's an annoyance but I have to stop working. I have to do different things to

[01:19:51] I guess I should take those extra supplements to try to get better quicker so they can get back

[01:19:54] work quicker. It's not a worry about that infection is going to harm me. That's the infection

[01:20:01] that's going to hurt me. It's the people that take me. But people can take you to the loony bin.

[01:20:07] There we are. We're there taking me. I don't know because if I'm sick, I'm weak and if I'm weak,

[01:20:11] I'm vulnerable and if you're vulnerable you're taken. Got it. That's how that's. That's just yeah.

[01:20:18] What else do we want to say about the favors? Oh, I looked up the numbers the sales of

[01:20:22] a cinnamon a fin. Oh my goodness. The sales of a cinnamon a fin in this country. I wonder if we

[01:20:29] have data on sales of a cinnamon a fin and socialized medicine countries. I don't know that they

[01:20:35] keep track of it. We keep track of our sales of everything in this country because our system is

[01:20:42] based on capitalism. And I don't know that they have to keep track of sales if your system is based on

[01:20:48] that. But that's the thing people don't take Tylenol or a cinnamon fin just for for a fever.

[01:20:54] That's a benefit. That's a side effect. It's more of people focus on the pain and everything else.

[01:21:00] True, we take it a lot. Right. We do like our pills definitely. We do. We like to

[01:21:06] we like to do that. And even and again, a fever is we all agree it's a symptom. Right. Did

[01:21:12] hang go back to being a symptom? Remember when pain was a symptom and then it was a disease

[01:21:17] so that we could give people opioids. And then we realized that was a huge mistake. So did it go

[01:21:22] back to being a symptom? It used to be called one of the vital signs. Oh, I know. The back

[01:21:29] whenever we had the opioid. Oh, I know. I was practicing it. Yeah. Yeah. So no, no, I think it's back to a

[01:21:34] symptom. Isn't that amazing? But a fever is not a disease yet. It is not. It's okay. All right.

[01:21:42] It's still a symptom. But so obviously you talk, we're talking about that marketing. So it depends

[01:21:48] if something's a disease or a symptom depends on how good of medications you have to treat it.

[01:21:57] So there's opiates. So pain is no, is the symptom now because we don't have the opiates

[01:22:03] to save the day. Right. But we, yeah, we did and we still would had it not been for the

[01:22:08] for all of the horrible things again from that. Yeah. So I hope that a fever remains a symptom

[01:22:16] and that we put it in its proper place and give the body its proper respect just like we would

[01:22:22] give an antibiotic, its proper respect or an anti-piratic, something that fights a fever,

[01:22:27] its proper respect. Everything just has to be given respect. And we should tell the truth about what

[01:22:32] things are. We should tell the truth. And antibiotic does not kill a virus. Correct. And a fever

[01:22:38] is a symptom and it has a purpose in the body. That's all, like really all I want is a little more

[01:22:44] truth in the lowest marketing. I'd be very happy with that. Not all of it. I'm a real pest. We're

[01:22:50] not going to get rid of all of marketing in medicine. Right. But I would like a little more truth.

[01:22:58] Tell me what? All right. Anything else we'd like to say or sum up about that?

[01:23:06] No, I think that's good. But I think that we should talk about

[01:23:11] thank doctors who's always, Dr. Ian's who's always my brother.

[01:23:14] Yes, we should. And we really didn't announce that earlier, I guess.

[01:23:18] We will, though. Yeah, but we will. Yeah, but you know that my brother and

[01:23:24] though we really enjoyed you on this podcast. And we were hoping to have you back very soon. So we

[01:23:31] can talk more about some of these, these conventional medical treatments that we should be

[01:23:39] looking at differently. And yeah, we're hoping to do our next one on dietary therapies and dietary

[01:23:46] recommendations that doctors make that are totally wrong. Oh, that would be a good topic. That'd be

[01:23:52] really good topic. But I love you. Yeah, I love your perspective. And I've learned so much

[01:23:57] from you and that you, you practice every day. You're in the field every day. You're a clinician.

[01:24:03] Yeah. And it was, it was just great having you guys are um, two surzelluses in one room. Amazing.

[01:24:11] And is that what brought, is that what compelled you to do this today? And to help out Ted or

[01:24:16] do you like this topic? I know you're very into like, I know you care so much about your patients.

[01:24:21] That's why my kids are your patients. Yeah.

[01:24:23] Well, I actually just that this would be something very enjoyable to do just to be able to get

[01:24:28] together and share as far as just the information you have. I think it's so important to share the

[01:24:32] information. Oh, we do. Yes. I enjoy learning from my brother. I learn from them all the time and

[01:24:38] always have questions for him. Oh, I love that. That's just a good back and forth. Yeah. And that's where

[01:24:44] patients when they find out that my brothers are primary care doctors. Do you guys have big arguments?

[01:24:49] Well, no, we respect each other when we learn from each other and it makes both of our

[01:24:55] practices better. Imagine that. Yeah. You can just spread that around all with the truth. Right.

[01:25:01] Yes. I love that. It's funny because I have the same thing happening yesterday. Somebody was asking me,

[01:25:05] so what do you have going on tomorrow? So I'm going to do a podcast with my brother. He's a

[01:25:09] nature of path because it's oh, so is this going to be a really high tension discussion? I'm like,

[01:25:15] well, no, not really. I think we have a one in the same lines. I said, I'm more of that bridge in

[01:25:19] between the conventional and the alternative. Just trying to balance that part out. Right. So we're

[01:25:24] right in a lot of ways. I have to do the same exactly. Yeah. And I just give drugs.

[01:25:32] Keep those prescription coming in to pay your paycheck. Keep me going. Yep. All right. I think we're done.

[01:25:42] Yeah, that was so good. Take on Elvgarh was created and associated by Ted Zouselis and Mary

[01:25:49] the information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not

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